Energy Transition Now Podcast – Episode 34 “Electrolyser Challenges and Learnings”

Joyce Grigorey [00:00:00] Hello to all our listeners who are joining us today on our first Hydrogen podcast series. Today’s episode is focussed around electrolysers and specifically some of the challenges that the industry is facing around scaling up of capacity. And this is really going to be a very critical piece if we’re going to be getting the green hydrogen economy off the ground. So joining me today to discuss some of these challenges is Devon Hyver from Plug Power. Welcome, Devon. Very happy to have you with us today. Firstly, I’d just like to start off by asking you to give a little bit of background around Plug Power and what your specific role there is.

Devon Hyver [00:00:44] A thank you so much, Joyce, for having me today and representing Plug Power. Very exciting to be here. Devon Hyver, the Sales Director for Europe, Middle East, Africa and India on the electrolyser business unit we have with Plug since a long period of time now starting in Europe. Really exciting and as everyone from close and from far from the green energy market. I know Plug Power is 25 years old company roughly, where there is a very strong deployment historically in the fuel cell application, where our CEO on the team around being 15 years ago decided to find a real market for hydrogen and for fuel cell where you have captive fleets, specifically for forklift application. We started with some very important accounts, such as WalMart, Amazon, BMW where we have 600 forklifts running 24/7 in these logistic centres. It was amazing. But why captive fleet? Because on captive fleet model, once you have yields you don’t need to deploy a complete new infrastructure all over the place. So ground support equipment or forklift inside your logistics centre was really the perfect journey for a fuel cell. Then the customers starting to ask us, hey, what about the infrastructure? Can you do it yourself? We grew here and starting to deliver infrastructure around the fuel cell where you replace directly the battery. However, back in the time, as you can imagine, most of the hydrogen available, similar to today, was grey hydrogen. And this grey hydrogen was provided by all the historical oil and gas suppliers, same as today. Plug Power was buying this grey hydrogen and then supplying to our own customer. The level of the solution, it’s amazing benefits, the saving that you’re about to do, the full usage of your fleet almost 24 hour out of 24 compared to battery when you need to reach over battery so you improve your performance on the ground. Now what I’ve done, the guy at one point came back to us and said, hey Plug, we love your solution; however, we need to decarbonise our logistic. We are under pressure by politicians and by our customer. So what can you do? We went back to all our grey hydrogen supplier and asked them, dear supplier please we need green. They didn’t trust in green. So we asked, we asked and we asked for years. Then in one point in time Plug Power was able to get up to $5 billion cash and decided to take our own face and our own hands, and said, hey, you know what, we are the best in the fuel cell, let’s be the best in the electrolyser and produce green hydrogen to deliver to all our customers with this green hydrogen. So that’s where we started. We acquired a company name Giner – 35 years of expertise supplying PEM stack to produce hydrogen in the nuclear, submarine, for example, the US Navy or the NASA Space Station. It’s more than 25 stacked deploy in the market with the best stack you can find there, with 40 bar direct output in pressure, 99.1% purity hydrogen. That was amazing. Now we acquired also a different company around this green hydrogen ecosystem that we try to build to deliver not only a product as a fuel cell to our customer, but the solution to decarbonise completely the logistic. So we acquired Frames – that’s the big engineering oil and gas company with 35 years of experience of building products and projects. That was very exciting. It was a strong presence in Europe and in India. We acquired a duel processing for the liquefaction of hydrogen with amazing performance on the product. Because in the US, due to the very long distance from the production point to the delivery of hydrogen, liquid is an amazing benefit. We acquired ACT, apply cryotechnology also for the liquefaction and the transport and tank our liquid hydrogen. So that’s a great, great journey. And out of all these different acquisition, we develop an electrolyser solution that we use for ourselves. Like you can see on YouTube, if you go on the Plug Power website, you will see we have built the largest green hydrogen blast liquefaction plant you have in the U.S. exactly in Georgia, Peachtree – there’s two different sites. It’s a 15 tonne per day production plant with a target to go up to 45 tonnes in the coming years. That’s very exciting and that’s where we are today in a big world. We started from a couple hundred person and now we are roughly 4000 employees. We have a strong target this year to achieve $1.4 billion in revenue, 60000 fuel cell in operation, 1 billion operating hours on the fuel cell. It’s roughly 2 billion kilometres that we have been able to do. We target to have 500 tons per day production of green hydrogen by 2025, and 4 gigawatts of electrolyser installed. And from a financial perspective, but also to be able to finance our own project, we have still a strong balance sheet with $2 billion available to invest in our production capacity, production of equipment, but production plant as well, where we produce this green hydrogen for our own customer and own usage.

Joyce Grigorey [00:06:28] I mean it’s an amazing story of growth over the years and how you’ve managed to kind of build out your capabilities and follow the market. I was listening to, and I think it was an analysts presentation that was done a week or so ago and your CEO, Andy Marsh, was presenting there. I think they were at the Gigafactory in Rochester, New York. He was doing a site tour for all the analysts. He was extremely proud of what he’s managed to accomplish there. You talked a little bit about some of the ambitions that Plug has. Where are you focusing specifically in terms of your capacity? I know you’ve got some sites in Finland. I guess the first question is why Finland? And then, do you have plans elsewhere in Europe as well?

Devon Hyver [00:07:25] So there is different thing to take into consideration. Rochester is a factory where we produce the PEM stack and the PEM fuel cell. We announced to the market that we already are producing up to 100 megawatt per month of PEM stack to be able to build PEM electrolyser in the end. What we have announced in Finland – the 2 gigawatt plant – is planned to produce green hydrogen, not to produce stacks. So you need the stacks – the heart of the electrolyser – to produce the green hydrogen. The plant that we have in Rochester is really where we produce the PEM stack and the PEM fuel cell. We have mutalised the production itself. First Gigafactory that have been built by our amazing team there. It’s very impressive. Every customer that go there, the big oil and gas corporations to all the international potential customers from Europe, from US, North Africa, Australia, as well. They all called us after this and said, “wow, that’s amazing. We have seen a lot of garage and now see this gigafactory producing. That’s very impressive.” So, no, I’m super glad that we’ve been able to achieve such, quite a lot of effort. But it’s the first in the world gigafactory that produce PEM stack and PEM fuel cell altogether. Well, that’s very exciting and it helped us to answer sort of market needs. Today, if you can see, we have a whole plant that’s in building, but there is also customer plant where there is green hydrogen in order to generate this green hydrogen and achieve decarbonisation of the different industry – ammonia producer, refinery, methanol, sustainable aviation fuel is starting to be a big thing as well, and also many other potential market that need green hydrogen to displace the gas producing the CO2 emission, unfortunately, today.

Joyce Grigorey [00:09:31] Okay. And so you’re electrolysers – you’re producing one gigawatt, five gigawatts and that’s really for a range of different applications then?

Devon Hyver [00:09:40] Absolutely. So we have different model of electrolyser for the market. We will go with five megawatt, fully containerised electrolyser – but mostly for project developer. It’s a pilot we will see in smaller environment around mobility. Often and why is this product is perfect for pilot or for project developers? Because often project developers don’t have the same capability to manage a project that historical oil and gas industrial players that’s been known to manage a complete balance of plant and I think all the experts in the electrolyser industry will start to understand or you develop a project and now it’s one a little bit. But the package, it’s coming with the stack, obviously, where the magic all happen. But you need also water purification system to be sure that the water bring to the stack is completely clean and to add, in the end, the best performance of the product. Then from the stack, you have the hydrogen at 40 bar directly 70 C going to what we call a hydrogen purification unit. This is then all included in the container of five megawatts for you to produce to 2 tonne per day out of water and electricity are at 90.9999 purity – so we call it five nine. This purity will allow mobility to use fuel cell directly in any vehicle. So, for example, Plug Power with a joint venture with HYVIA in Europe for light commercial vehicle, delivery vans, minibuses. They cool and they have on their site, by the way, a Plug Power electrolyer, produce their own hydrogen, refuel it 5 minutes and then they have complete autonomy of 300 to 500 kilometres with this green hydrogen produced directly on the site. And that would be the purpose of this fully containerised solution. So you have everything inside a system. You don’t need to develop an overall plant, your control logic, your safety is already done. So that’s quality up to 50 megawatts. Often we will use this five megawatt block, so 10 of 10 for 50 megawatt. And then we have also arrays. So for the curious one ever you send me an email or you contact us directly or whatever form you want, or you can go on our YouTube website and you will see the presentation of the Georgia plant inside a building. You have five megawatt arrays or it will be ten megawatt arrays. And then the second part of the project and this arrays is what we use for large plant. What they call arrays is a ten megawatt system with a balance of stacks – so you don’t have the water purification, you don’t have the hydrogen purification unit because this one part of the project often mutualised is the role of the project. For example, if you do methanol plant, you will have one common water treatment package. Often you will have also a common control, common cooling system that is taken into consideration. And then the IHPU have to be customised and defined according to a process that to have in the electrolyser. So for 99.1 you will get the exact purity of hydrogen needed. Most important part is the oxygen often. Sorry if I am too technical here.

Joyce Grigorey [00:13:01] Okay so you have different options that are more suitable for different applications.

Devon Hyver [00:13:09] Yep, absolutely.

Joyce Grigorey [00:13:11] Okay. Just taking a step back to have a look at the electrolyser market for a second. In the conversations that I’ve had with various people in the industry, there’s some concerns around the lead time for electrolysers, which they’re saying is, you know, a minimum of 18 months. And that obviously has huge implications, right? Because that means that you need to secure your electrolyser supply very early on in the project development stage. And I guess also there’s a potential for there to be quite a significant bottleneck in trying to scale up the green hydrogen economy. Just curious to hear your thoughts on that. Is that something that you’re seeing? And if so, can you maybe explain why we’re seeing this sort of backlog?

Devon Hyver [00:14:00]  I’m not seeing a major backlog in terms of production time. What I’m seeing is a lot of people that are waiting to get the permit to start their project. And as soon as they get the permit, they want the project tomorrow morning. And, unfortunately, what we are seeing in project development, the longest part of the project is more the paperwork unfortunately. Now in Europe it’s quite a big thing – sometime 18 to 24 months just to get access to the permits. Now the people that want to invest are waiting for this permit. As soon as the permit is done, they want to move full blast and full speed. If you have a proper project execution plan and you have done a proper, what we call FEED (front end engineering design) where Plug Power participates with the EPC and the end customer to define exactly the right scale, I don’t see the electrolyser as being an issue in terms of timetable. On the fully containerised solution, with the right information at the beginning, we are able to supply it in much less than 18 months. 12 months is something that we are seeing quite often. As a matter of fact, we are producing quite a lot for electrolyser lately and we have a possibility to deliver on a fast pace. We need to know some critical information, for example, what would be the grid that you have available and it allows us to validate if the PCS (or power converter solution) is available – that was one of this bottleneck we had previously on the market. Because as you know, the PV industry is going up, the wind industry is also going through the roof, and the electrolyser market, especially at Plug with the PEM solution for the containerised, is skyrocketing. So the power conversion system that is common to all these businesses, needs to be taken into consideration at the beginning. However, with all stack capabilities today, we are able to serve our customer in a very fast fashion and we have found a different strategy to allow all this other customer. What I’m seeing a lot is people telling me it’s long, it’s long and we want to do this thing. What I’m not seeing a lot is people taking FID and sending orders. So this I’m not talking about Plug, I’m talking about the market. As you have seen, less than 1% of all the projects that you can find anywhere went to FID. And there is a lot things taken into consideration. Permits obviously is something that is taking quite a long period of time, especially in European or Asian country. And as a thing to take into consideration is there is a lot of persons waiting for subsidies and the subsidies are sometime not retroactive. So if you start your plant before being awarded or before getting the subsidies, and you count on the subsidies to be successful in your business plan, then you can lose one more year, unfortunately.

Joyce Grigorey [00:16:56] So you’re seeing permitting and the ability to get subsidies and, you know, the time that it takes to do this as is one of the major challenges in the industry. What other major factors do you think are kind of halting the scale up or the implementation of large scale electrolyser deployment?

Devon Hyver [00:17:23] Very important to take into consideration also the regulation about putting in place. For example, everyone was moving full blast with one technology (alkaline) due to the nature of this  technology led to the fact that the CAPEX is very competitive today. It’s 120 years old and very easy technology to do. So that’s why we are seeing a lot of competition in this alkaline market. Plug Power we are in PEM so it’s a bit different. But the new regulation came out and was the Delegate Act starting 2028 in Europe – you need to use the electricity in less than an hour that it’s produced. So you will have a lot of intermittency, especially if you run with solar and wind and a mix of different electricity. Then all these company have developed their project from one year, two year with alkaline technology and they switch completely that if they want a very competitive globalised cost of hydrogen, or LCOH, on the 25 year period of the life of the electrolyser – they are running after us. But I say us, Plug, but all the PEM manufacturer because they need a very good product and there is not that much PEM manufacturer that are doing today over 100 megawatt project like we do, for example, in The Netherlands with Uniper and Technip. So that is very exciting. And all these people, due to the new regulation, there is a big changes and they need to come back and adapt to this new regulation if they want their end product being qualified RFNBO. This is a very important thing. 2028 is not tomorrow morning but it’s tomorrow end of the day, right? It’s not far away. You need to add up your product for. So that’s something that is important to take into consideration. Second thing that I see – I don’t know if I should put it first or second – but the local infrastructure, right? And the electrolyser needs electricity. Usually the grid in Europe are good. You can use a new dedicated grid for it. So that’s important to have good relationship with the local TSO that will provide you with the grid connection, especially on a large scale. But water is something very important, I think. Water is something in some areas that is a rare resource, unfortunately. Then the electrolyser will consume a lot of water just by the reaction – you apply the water inside, you get your electricity and then you get hydrogen outside of the electrolyser being produced. You lost some of this water, you can recover some of it in the hydrogen purification process or in the oxygen and then the electrolyser, depending on the technology you are using, some company want to use cooling power to cool down the electrolyser without using a lot of water resources. Usually we put a bi-cooler in this rare area where you have a pool of resources available. So that’s important take into consideration. And then third thing, what do you have around your project? If you have a project that is nearby an industrial zone that is not with too much possible source of water, you don’t have an issue to use, for example, alkaline technology and that would be a perfect mix with spanning some scenario. But if you are a nearby portable source of water and far away from any big industry, how do you recycle UK wage, that’s something that is very important to take into consideration. And if your clogs site potassium for whatever reason we have a leak like it happened two years ago in Germany with one of our colleagues on the market, it will be a disaster not only for the electrolyser plant but also for the local environment. And we don’t want to add more problem to what we are trying to solve today. So that’s something important to take into consideration. We have seen in some projects that are coming with very big plans for electrolyser that had a very large impact on the potential farmers around. So it was a challenge. We had to find different alternative to be able to withstand together on this one. So that’s some challenges that we could see in the future on the water system and the local infrastructure.

Joyce Grigorey [00:21:50] A lot of these seem to be quite external. I mean, when I’ve spoken to others, they’ve expressed some concerns around, you know, whether the technology is ready; how do we focus on bringing the cost down; the rare earth materials that need to go into the electrolysers. Do you see these as is major issues for the industry?

Devon Hyver [00:22:18] I will say from Plug’s perspective we are quite in a unique position. We are ready already to tackle this market. We have our gigafactory producing 100 megawatts stack per month already and it’s only the beginning of it. We can go with much higher pace if needed to answer the market with. But second thing to take into consideration, we are selling electrolyser, but we are also building our whole electrolyser plant ourselves for Plug Power to hold the potential issue, problem, project strategy approach that we have faced at the beginning of sales. We are small company and we do not replicate this problem to our customers. When our customer get to have a product, have the right product, build the right way, to get the one that’s already tested in pilots in our plants. We don’t have the same issue that anyone else because we were the only one doing such thing on the market due to our amazing fuel cell business units, procuring fuel cell all over the place. That have been announced again we are working very strongly with one French company makes full stack. We expand multiple sites and we have many multiple account going around. We have the HYVIA vehicle, light commercial vehicle that is coming around. Also this to support the logistics of these companies asking for more and more and more green hydrogen. It’s where we came in with the electrolyser business, you need to support our colleague, supply them green. So we have tested everything. But also we acquired Frames. Now we call them PSS (Plug Systems Solution) that are building project since 35 years in the oil and gas industry. And it’s where most of our customers of today have not done major customer not know to develop the project. When you work with this people, you go through a standard process, you do your feasibility, your concept, then your pre-FEED and you go to your FID (final investment decision). You don’t go from feasibility to FID in one week like we have seen and end up with a complete nightmare or bankrupt project. And unfortunately we went through this as well where a customer wanted us – they have perfect example, 100 megawatts in Spain. And when you ask them where is your control room? They told me, what is a control room? I told them it seems to be a bit lost here. But we have the paper and the order in hand. So we knew and now we focussed a bit. We now are focusing on different strategies and approach and we try to educate as much as possible. All the newcomers are not historically from the oil and gas industry market. You need and EPC to support you. You need to do a basic engineering. And unfortunately not everyone is doing the same approach because not everyone in the market purchasing an electrolyser has the capability internally to support a customer with a concrete basic engineering design package that date for six months. But if you do it correctly, you go FID and then you start the execution. You have your small execution engineering at the beginning or  engineering, but everything is well planned and you don’t have any issue with delivery as you mentioned or with other challenges that complicate the project.

Joyce Grigorey [00:25:47] So your partnerships and your capability across the entire chain to support from initial scoping phase to the end is pretty key here. You also have a partnership with Johnson Matthey, is that correct?

Devon Hyver [00:26:05] That is absolutely correct. And as you know, it’s much less number one supplier in the world for a rare raw material that could be applied to membrane. But, on top of that, Plug Power is working with multiple different membrane coating. So were historically using one out of Rochester, outside of Plug Power. And now we have within our Rochester plant our own membrane coating assembly where we do fuel cell and PEM stack membrane. I think we are in the top five of the world in terms of production of membrane today ourselves, due to this amazing partnership we have with Johnson Matthey that allows us to have a secured a raw material production for the next years and stay ahead of the competition in terms of supply but also in terms of performances in the products.

Joyce Grigorey [00:26:59] And just a question on, you know, Plug obviously originated in the US. You’ve branched out to other parts of the world. You’re securing large contract orders like the 100 megawatt project that you were talking about in The Netherlands. And your role, your remit obviously covers Europe, Middle East, Africa and India. I’m curious to know whether or not you’re seeing differences in the deployment of electrolysers in different regions of the world. I mean, you mentioned water. Obviously the Middle East water is quite a significant resource, you know, shortage of resource. Are are there other challenges that you’re seeing?

Devon Hyver [00:27:46] And it’s vital for me to say – as I can with both Canadian and French citizenship – I can talk about most America and what I’m seeing in Europe. But three years ago, four years ago, we were in France ahead of this green hydrogen transition and, unfortunately Europe, due to the complexity of what’s going on around this new potential market, a little bit lost the pace. The Inflation Reduction Act is an amazing tool. And I think everyone can apply. If you respect the different rules, you get the support from the US government and the tax credit that you are accessible to. In Europe, you need to go through sometimes two or three years process just to get awarded the subsidy. If you are lucky enough and you feel good and you didn’t miss any paper, now this is giving your bids a different speed. We are seeing, and for me, managing Europe was the team. We had amazing project. We were starting FEED or nearly starting FEED. The people came back to us six months ago and said, everyone, we love you. You have the best product on the market according to what we have seen. The efficiency is superb. The performance is excellent. You can deliver. But we are transferring our 1 gigawatt project that we had in Europe or in Africa to US because of the Inflation Reduction Act and the benefit that it can bring, you know, 3 euro per kilogram is not something that people should not be blind. It’s a business decision that is important sometimes in some consideration. Then you mention it in some country. What we are seeing helps to produce green hydrogen. Obviously, you need a green source of electricity. Now, there is some country in Europe that are lacking in this green source of electricity. I don’t know if you recall, but I think two months ago in France, they were opening the fourth offshore wind turbine park and they worked on it for more than ten years. So we need this green electricity as soon as possible. There is a country that should tackle this green hydrogen potential opportunity and haul the product around as soon as tomorrow morning, for example, Morocco, Namibia, South Africa, Oman, in Middle East there are plenty of opportunity due to the local resources they have for wind and for electricity. And for them, it will be an amazing opportunity to generate local employment, revenues and also to growth and to follow the world trend and help the world to decarbonise their overall industry.

Joyce Grigorey [00:30:27] Do you think that you would end up expanding more into some of those other regions that you mentioned that have quite a lot of potential?

Devon Hyver [00:30:39] And as you have seen, we announced two gigawatts in Finland, Europe. So very exciting and honestly Plug Power is looking at all the different opportunity where it makes sense and why we choose Finland because the local regulation, politics are very good but also the price of electricity is ultra competitive as you can imagine. And there is already a local industry that is keen to use tomorrow morning the green energy to decarbonise their end goods that they are producing from steel and ammonia, different other application. They are key. They are already there. Some others look at it from far away and say, Let’s see the first one and then we’ll develop. But as you know, the 2.2 gigawatts will be completely finished there by 2030. So it’s not tomorrow morning, but it is important to tackle the problem and the challenge we are seeing in these industries now, only by 2030 we’ll say then let’s do it for 2050, right? We have this first mover and I think the mindset in the Scandinavian country and all this is completely different that in some other part. And then for all the other country, Plug Power is already strongly present. We have built the largest PEM electrolyser in Africa, for example, for OCI for Fertiglobe, which is an ammonia where we did the pilot with three times five megawatts, it will be the input. But today we already have two time five megawatt fully operational to produce green hydrogen and feeding the ammonia plant. Now we have project where we participate. It’s a project in South Africa where Plug Power will deliver the refulling station to refuel a big mining truck running on a fuel cell. So we are present and also we have an office in India. We have an office in Dubai where we support the local market. And now delivering project in this country I have – I don’t want to say too much name, but we have moved way over a couple of hundred megawatt being built and assembled at the moment in the Middle East. And we have the capability and the possibility to build locally and to assemble everything because Plug, through the Frames acquisition, is present since more than 15 years in this area, mostly following the oil and gas market historically. But now we are seeing a big shift in the market where the oil and gas people are seeing this green hydrogen trend as a real business model for their future.

Joyce Grigorey [00:33:11] Well, it sounds like Plug has a fantastic track record built up over these years. You’ve got, you know, pipeline of projects, huge ambitions. You’ve got the right partnerships in place. If we’re talking about, you know, maybe that the market more widely. What do you think, if you had to pinpoint one or two things that are really kind of lacking at the moment, that would if that was changed or if that was implemented, would really help the market take off, what would you say would need to happen?

Devon Hyver [00:33:49] I’m hearing some quite a long period of time the CO2 tax penalty that will be applied. This will be a big difference. I’m starting to talk about it to be applying a bit bolder, especially in Europe want it to be the largest consumer in the world. So tomorrow morning, you produce ammonia outside of Europe emitting ten tonnes of CO2 for each ton of hydrogen you consume and you want to import in Europe, you don’t pay any penalties. If you start to do it, everyone will have to adapt or to find a new market. But it should be a worldwide regulation because the problem is not only in Europe, not only in the US, it’s globally. And we can not let the unfortunate other countries paying the tributes for what we have done in the past. We should learn from the experience and from where we are. To accelerate the project we need to do project number one, two, three, four, five. All of us together. Not only Plug but the one market electrolyser, one industry, bankable to reassure the people that put their equity around project, that give guarantee, mostly the financial sector looking for it today with eyes that, okay, let’s see, let’s wait a bit. Should we trust the 1 gigawatt project right away as we are seeing now in Saudi Arabia on the NEOM project. Amazing project and great, great opportunity. There is 23 banks to follow the project, not one, not five – 23 different banks because they want mitigate the risk as much as possible. They want to have a small piece of it. They don’t want the small paces. Plug Power is in a completely different position. We are lucky being an American company. We have the capability and we have also the governments, the White House, supporting us with different ECA tools – so exportation tool that helps you to support project for any customers when they are very large project and they want to have access to cost effective money to finance the project. Plug Power will go with the team to the bank and say, hey dear bank of their potential customer, we will take the guarantee on the project to support the exportation of the goods. So that’s some different tools that not everyone is already always aware. Then I think one of the US was the Inflation Reduction Act should be taken as an example. The process, the regulation is amazing. In Europe, you have the challenge of 27 different counties to align all ways. I think sometimes speed is quite important. If you want to give what’s the best to next generation, we need to act now today all of us. Plug with the world green hydrogen market and the world people that we are seeing in the street now whatever we can do tomorrow morning when you wake up.

Joyce Grigorey [00:36:42] Thank you very much. It’s really inspiring, right? We’ve heard so much about your your plans. Still some challenges in the wider market in terms of needing a CO2 tax, that we need to start getting some of these projects off the ground, deploying them, getting investors confident in investing in the marketplace. And we need to start doing that today. So some inspiring words. Thank you very much for the discussion. We’re nearly out of time here, but I just want to express how appreciative I am that you’ve taken the time to discuss some of the challenges today. And I’m sure I speak on behalf of the wider audience that we really look forward to following you on on this journey.

Devon Hyver [00:37:32] Thank you.

Joyce Grigorey [00:37:33] And thanks also to all of our listeners today. We hope that you found this discussion insightful. Please make sure to subscribe and we will see you next time. Thank you.

 

 

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