Energy Transition Now Podcast – Episode 29 “Delivering Europe’s Offshore Wind Ambitions”

David Linden [00:00:00] Hello, everyone. I’m your host, David Linden, the Head of Energy Transition for Westwood Global Energy Group. And you’re listening to Energy Transition Now, the Offshore Wind mini-series. Now, if you follow the offshore wind sector in any way, you’ll be very familiar with the scale of our ambition. New capacity targets seem to be announced at almost every week, if not every month, around the world. And these really help to drive the industry forward. The challenge, though, is in delivering on those ambitions and those targets. While previous guests on this podcast have spoken on the question of deliverability in sort of newer and emerging markets, specifically, what about the original sort of birthplace of the industry? What about Europe? I’m really lucky to have Justine Burg, the vice president of Business Development and Renewables for Europe from Equinor here with us today to dive into this fundamental question. Justine, great to have you on the podcast. Welcome.

Justine Burg [00:01:02] Thank you. Thank you, David. Hello.

David Linden [00:01:04] Hello. Hello. It is a busy time for all for offshore wind and lots of things going on in renewables. So thank you for taking the time to speak with us. Let’s maybe just start off with some of the basics. You know, not everyone knows what’s going on specifically with Equinor and also with offshore wind. So how about we start with the open kind of question around how does offshore wind fit into Equinor’s strategy?

Justine Burg [00:01:33] Yes, thanks. A good intro, right? Maybe I should start with who are we, a little bit about Equinor. We have 50 years, we’ve celebrated our 50 years anniversary last year or so, and we’ve been through a really interesting journey, starting from a Norwegian oil and gas company and transforming really, to a true global broad energy company. And that is really translated into ambition levels when it comes to renewables, where we want to be a net zero company by 2050. And translating this ambition by investing 50% of our CapEx and spendings into renewables and low carbon business areas. So that’s really significant. And In terms of volumes, we want to have 12 to 16 gigawatts of renewable installed capacity for by 2030. And just to give a flavour around two thirds would be expected within the offshore wind. And you mentioned Europe, right? So really Europe here is a key growth area for a company like ours, you know, over the last year, very specific context, but we’ve been a proud, important supplier of energy to Europe, especially gas supplier and, and within renewables, you know, we have an attractive portfolio from early business development but also to assets in operation and we’re aiming to grow. And just to give, you know, for example, UK, which is one of our key centre for showing development, we will power nearly 7 million UK homes from our offshore wind farms by 2030. And currently we have this Dogger Bank wind farm, which is the world’s largest wind farm under construction with our partner SSE. So definitely offshore wind, offshore wind, Europe’s really part of the solution for our, you know, our company and solution to the energy transition. And I think it’s a technology where it fits very well with our oil and gas experience of offshore complex project, rough water, directly applicable to the offshore wind industry and also with specificity with regard to our floating offshore wind experience, which we like a lot we’re keen on, we installed the first floating turbine, the first floating park and now were finalising the construction of the largest floating wind farm of Hywind Tampen in Norway.

David Linden [00:04:07] Yeah. Due to come on this year.

Justine Burg [00:04:08] Exactly. Yeah.

David Linden [00:04:10] Perfect. Okay, so there’s a real history there of offshore wind, I guess, and then an ambition to it to do offshore wind globally, whether it’s in floating or in fixed, essentially.

Justine Burg [00:04:23] Absolutely. Yeah. So, um, and we see that Europe is really key here. Oh, I think that what we see today is Europe’s really needs this affordable, and secure, reliable, electricity. And power prices have been such last year in such volatility that it has put so much pressure on government in providing this energy. And that’s really what offshore wind can provide. So it would be a key solution for this decarbonisation. And that has led to, as you introduced some really, really high targets that we’ve seen and we should discuss those probably a bit, a bit more. But also this offshore wind electricity is part of this greater value chain right. It’s just not the electrons part, which is important for decarbonising Europe’s grid, but also it’s part of molecules producing green molecules from that green electricity. So it’s really part of the full decarbonisation value chain. And you see that it’s attracting all European economies, whether through its direct generation of those offshore wind farms or through interconnectors, transmission lines or even through investments like even for countries which do not have a coastline like Luxembourg, for example.

David Linden [00:05:46] Okay. So fascinating, no, I also look at it, I guess Europe in particular as well. If you’re trying to decarbonise, you need to work out what resources you have on your doorstep to be able to do that. And I guess Europe is kind of blessed in some respects to have shallower waters, but also deeper waters if you go further out, but lots of shallow waters and windy conditions. And so being able to take advantage of that resource and do something with that, to be able to reach your decarbonisation targets I think is important and I completely agree with you, the kind of decarbonisation value chain that’s there that can be built is an extremely strong proposition. I mean, just, just so people understand who maybe don’t spend as much time in this space. When you say green molecules, are we talking about things like hydrogen or that that kind of a Power to X concept which is developing, maybe E fuels SAF (sustainable aviation fuels)? Sorry, is that what you’re talking about?

Justine Burg [00:06:40] Exactly. I think that’s the green hydrogen is probably the most known one, but there is all the times of all those products. Right. The green ammonia, I think Power to X is another terminology, exactly. That encompasses all the potential and outcomes from transforming electrons into another or another product. But of course also be direct heating, for example, or, you know, the full system integration components.

David Linden [00:07:07] Okay. And then sorry, just to sort of question on that point, is that a core part of how you look at offshore wind in Europe or is that really a secondary part of it? So really it’s about the electron first and then the green molecule second from your perspective?

Justine Burg [00:07:25] Yeah, I think that’s definitely, it needs to be seen as a full value chain. And I think that it is really about this full component of more and more of this will be also imposed for developers to still be relevant. And you see that also in auction, and we can come back about what fourth auctions we see. But so system integration, power to X will be more and more entering into on the matter in markets like in Denmark and Netherlands and in Germany. So it’s really enabling this flexible demand all together. Right. Adapting the demand versus the production which is intermittent, which would be also quite concentrated in some areas with the demand. So I think this is the key true to decarbonisation. So it needs to be seen as a whole really.

David Linden [00:08:13] Okay, that’s very powerful. I guess once you’ve got that, okay, we can come back to that. That’s fabulous. So, if we just come back to Europe, maybe specifically, I was quite grand opening around to the big ambitions and big statements. What do we see in Europe in terms of kind of the key targets in the region?

Justine Burg [00:08:29] And there was a major event a few weeks ago, really at Ostend in Belgium. Right. We had a major offshore wind forum which gathered the head of states of nine countries around the North Sea. There’s Norway, the UK, Germany, France, Denmark, Netherlands, it was Luxembourg, Ireland, and Belgium are there. So really, you know, very big events where setting a clear ambition of making the North Sea a key powerhouse for Europe through offshore wind and the target then those countries, that’s a target for offshore wind of 120 gigawatts by 2030 and by 2050 300 gigawatts for the North Sea. And I think that really gives the sense of scale, right? Yeah, that will be developed over decades where we think that today around the same area we have a combined capacity less than 30 gigawatts. So we need to multiply it tenfold, right? So this means scaling up significantly, but it also represents, I would say, a fantastic opportunity really for European supply industry, for developers and for the society. But this is definitely very ambitious targets. Yeah, Equnior is very happy to see these type of targets. I think this is exactly what the entire industry needs. And then and then it gives them, you know, something to work for. Definitely.

David Linden [00:10:06] Absolutely. Yeah. And it’s great to see governments coming together because essentially it is going to require cooperation to make this work as well. And we’ll come to some of that. But I mean, is it just those countries you’ve just listed there that are driving this or is there a broader set that are also kind of integral to this scale where there might be even more targets to consider? But certainly you’ve got that core group you’ve talked about. So there is there a wider picture.

Justine Burg [00:10:33] Definitely actually. I think there’s a mix of existing and emerging markets as well. The North Sea is quite, matured environment for offshore wind. The Baltic is also very interesting, Equinor has a development project in Poland. And I would say there is all a set of more emerging offshore wind markets in the south of Europe, which will be driven mostly by floating offshore wind simply because of the characteristics of the water depths in those areas which are more suitable for floating offshore wind. But many of these country, like France, like Portugal, Spain and others, have also set, you know, ambitions when it comes to offshore wind development, mostly driven by floating offshore wind. So I would say it’s a mix of existing and emerging markets. To meet big targets.

David Linden [00:11:32] Yeah. Just so maybe someone like myself understands or someone like yourself is looking at the market day in, day out, would you say? You know, somewhere like Italy also has become a bit of a surprise package as such in terms of a market that suddenly come about that people weren’t maybe spending enough time on in the past and suddenly, wow, look at this market’s open tender and everyone’s rushing for it in some respects.

Justine Burg [00:11:57] So I think that there are quite some few markets which I think see the potential of very attractive coastline, good wind conditions. And, for a developer like, like a company like ours, it’s very important to see, you know, ambition level translated into key or pipeline of tenders or your access pathway to, to access to lease to develop. So I think what is really at stake is translating these big ambition figures into a concrete tender access pipeline visibility of, you know, access to lease or and that’s why we, you know, the entire offshore industry needs, I think we’ve seen Portugal now emerging with targets a bit quicker than what Spain would have said at the beginning. So maybe there is still some, some dynamics around this these more emerging countries and realising ambitions into your pipeline is what is really needed. That’s the clear access route for projects.

David Linden [00:13:01] Yes, I mean we’ve had some delays I guess as well, right. So it’s not all been obvious. Next year we’ll have another tender. That’s the one that’s just got bigger and bigger. In fact, some things like Portugal have been delayed and it’s not, it’s not obvious, but okay, we can come to talk about why some of that might be in just a minute. But um, so I guess the context here really is certainly it’s a northern Europe, it’s a it’s a ten fold increase that governments are trying to set themselves from the current targets. And you’ve got a whole series of kind of emerging markets beyond that, call it a Poland on one side and a Portugal on the other in terms of opportunity set. So there is in theory, no shortage of opportunity and ambition in this market. But I guess what I wanted to talk to you about specifically, Justine, is then, okay, so you’ve got all of this, you’ve got all these opportunities coming up. What is it that you’re seeing that’s actually going to maybe be the difficulty in delivering this? Because it you know, it’s great to see, but it’s in the grand scheme of things, still a pretty nascent market. So what are some of the challenges you see I guess?

Justine Burg [00:14:12] As you say, I think the ambition level is there, right? But there are bit of stumbling blocks that could happen or derail a bit that plan along the way. Unless it’s really addressed. I would probably put these into three different buckets. I think one would be around project development, technicals. One is about the more the macro context that we see. And thirdly would be about the auction design that can have the stimulus for meeting this ambition levels. So if I started with the first one about the project development part, I think that today we see that, in some jurisdictions it takes 8 to 10 years to develop. And that’s not from a technical perspective. We’re able to really develop that from a much quicker way in half or third of that time. But what takes a lot of time is permitting and consenting. So we really need to have a substantially reliable permitting process. And how can we do that? I think, you know, simplifying the system, maybe a one stop shop, single point of contact framework that limit the number of appeals, some simplifications around that part. And then about the second point, which is an important enabler, is the grid connections. That’s really would ensure that, you know, all those electrons that would be produced would be able to float across the markets and avoid the congestions and the cannibalisation that can happen in some very dense areas. And in order to do that, we really had to build out of the grid both onshore and offshore. That enables that, you know, sort of a network of the offshore wind farms with the demand. And that is…

David Linden [00:16:07] Sorry, that’s the connection and essentially a build out of the grid capacity itself, onshore? Fine, okay.

Justine Burg [00:16:14] Onshore and offshore, so a hybrid project that we’ve discussed, you know, also putting up this interconnector, but also the components onshore that really brings the electrons to the customers. So I think that’s really permitting consenting and the grid connection is really,  important. And then beyond that, you know, there would be innovations and technology developments which will improve. But I don’t see that as really, really clear bottlenecks. But there would be more digitisation to optimise the O&M, there would be a lot of data collection, etc.. So that’s a bit on, on the development side, I would say.

David Linden [00:16:52] And sorry just, just for my understanding then, so. If you are obviously, you know, you go to any conference, let’s just say this is, these are two classic discussion points. Do you see movement in governments making efforts to change this? And you said about that simplification, that’s what you can do. But on the project development side, do you see a realistic effort being made to change permitting and consenting? People really do want change grid connections and infrastructure capacity. I mean, there’s a lot of different markets to talk about, but just in your sense, when you’re looking at the market, trying to make it work, what’s your view there in terms of how the markets are trying or governments maybe are trying to address that?

Justine Burg [00:17:34] Yeah, I think that there are some movements, but there’s probably some even more collaboration. There are some really good projects of energy islands coming up as well, you know, putting multi-purpose interconnectors across across countries. I think that will show how, you know, European countries are going to collaborate. And I think that’s that gives lots of opportunity. But it’s still early days, right? We need to have that reflection to co-create and co-shape the design of those systems between the regulator, between the developers and key questions, are who will own the cable, how are we going to use those, those interconnector, and on what terms will you give access to the power generation or just the infrastructures. So all these sets of key questions which are in the making and the will to develop those is there. So I think it’s really going in the right direction, but it still needs lots of co-work in collaboration around this. And it’s a new system thinking, I would say on the permitting side, yes, there is I think a political will to translate into, a simplified, simplified permitting system, but we need to still see that in actions. So lots of probably good ambitions but needs to be translated into, you know, clear, clear laws.

David Linden [00:19:03] Okay. And what about the macro context then? So your second major point, what are you seeing there?

Justine Burg [00:19:10] Yeah. And I hear I think that if we had had this discussion a year and year ago, probably had been very different, right? Yeah, because the macro context I think is important to spend a bit of time on and reflect on because what we see globally is definitely increased cost of capital. That’s one point. General inflation, that’s another one. That’s, you know, it comes from increase of raw materials. And of course we’ve been facing extraordinary times over the last year of COVID and Ukraine War. So and of course, this push of greater offshore wind delivery. So that’s all that really translates into also significant increase of cost and supply chain squeeze. And this increase in supply chain cost is really beyond the general inflation. So it’s, you know, there are some bottlenecks, There are some bottlenecks and, and that’s really the macro context. And how is it important why is that important is because I think it’s so what challenges a bit the, the typical model that offshore wind has been operating with on. This has been a bit the norm in the business models in this industry where then there was a situation where, you know, they were signed offtake contracts, that was followed by reduction of costs and why reduction of cost, because there was technology optimisations and falling interest rates, and that all resulted in good project return really, which was also boosted by farm downs. And now because of the macro really changing, I think it could make a bit of a reset or at risk of flipping. Right. So it could mean: will the model continue to operate will need some, some rethink. Will the recent cost increase resulted in in the project being challenged or not? So I think it’s really changed a bit the the traditional way that we’ve seen offshore wind operating in developing a bit over time.

David Linden [00:21:21] And do you think that macro context is causing people to. To pause and go. Is this. Are these the right projects for us? Is this the right region for us? I mean, I know it’s a global theme as well, but do you think this is causing people to stop and think like this? You know, you tell your child if they’re being naughty. But, you know, the same thing for the industry is they having to stop and think if like, hang on a minute, does this industry still make sense under these conditions? Is that what you’re kind of suggest?

Justine Burg [00:21:53] Well, I think it needs to, um, how this will affect general projects. Um, a bit difficult to really say, but I think it’s a time to. To pause and reflect. Yes, definitely. Um, some company might need to borrow more or not, use more balance sheets. Assessing the portfolio or the project by projects. Will it be delays, renegotiating terms? Oh, I think that will trigger lots of discussions. How will this affect as well competition in tenders. I think that’s, that’s also quite, quite uncertain but, yeah, it, it really, it gives a time to, to pause and reflect on whether it’s a reset or change of more business models. Could be. I’m not saying,but it triggers some key reflection. On the other hand right, as we’ve discussed in the intro, is that the targets have never been that higher. Right? So they have to be that much between the deliverability and, also this ambition level.

David Linden [00:22:58] Absolutely. And certainly so we you know Westwood as a business has done work around the kind of the cost side of things to try and help people understand where in the value chain who’s impacted what, how, where and what. And, and it’s interesting the kind of cost of capital bit is, is, is fascinating because of course it hit some businesses much harder than others because some of them can afford it or certainly choose alternative methods of pushing projects ahead, and others, let’s say something like say in the floating wind industry where there’s a lot of smaller players quite yes, reliant on external capital. Either it’s drying up or their cost of capital has gone up so much that an already expensive technology has become really expensive for them. And without sort of extrapolating too far, you know, the question that comes to mind is does that lead to consolidation in the industry? Right? And does it lead to companies that are actually more able to weather this environment to survive and thrive and others maybe sort of wither away then, you don’t have to answer that because I’m not sure if you want to, but it’s just an interesting discussion that we have with some folks in the industry.

Justine Burg [00:24:14] And then and I don’t have a specific answer, I think, but that we make distinction between companies, developers and competitors in general, the context where we see, consolidations or not. Yeah, and time will tell. I don’t know.

David Linden [00:24:27] Time will tell. Creative destruction is what happens, I guess in in, in all industries. But it’ll be interesting to see to see where this goes. Okay, so. You had one project development, two macro context three was auction design.

Justine Burg [00:24:48] Mhm.

David Linden [00:24:49] What, what, what, what’s on your mind around auction design and how it’s either aiding or abetting what’s, what’s going on here?

Justine Burg [00:24:56] Well I think it’s good that we take a little bit of a look at the auction design and we’ve talked of the framework in terms of permitting, but auction design is, is really key because this is how all this project are put forward to developers. Right. One of the point what’s of addressing this macro is and the inflation that we see in the macro is to take that into account, into how auctions are set. We need auctions design that cater for this increase of prices because then you need this to work for the developer, the supply chain and therefore the country of seeing those volumes being realised. And that’s really important that you know to ensure terms with inflation indexation. Else that’s, that’s could really put risks on, on projects and may see a negative investment appetite. So that’s, one point and we see that in some countries this inflation indexation, which is really important.

David Linden [00:25:56] Mm hmm.

Justine Burg [00:25:58] Another point is really about, we’ve seen an increasing trend or at least an increase of ambitions for some governments about really local, local supply chain, local development, local jobs and, and the same time low prices. And here, you know, seeing that’s a bit across all around the world, there needs to be a sort of, a balance so driven governments have been seeing some needs to look to build local industry and creating jobs, but also might have impact on increasing costs for the projects and that also reduce the ability to really standardise the supply chain and the development. So I think we need to find a strike, a good balance between these local content ambitions and the auction price. And, I think avoiding in design any strict measure requiring  really specific local content, which will have quickly increase of costly needs to be balanced because the European industry should remain competitive as well.

David Linden [00:27:04] Yeah, I guess it’s evolving even further if you think about things like that. So there’s non-price factors being considered obviously, so that some of the things are talking about there on the localisation side of things. But there are other factors being requested of developers to, to justify their bids or to enhance their bids, I guess is the word, But they all come at a you know, while they call non-price factors, they come at a price, a cost as such, but also all the other factors that are going on. So you think about carbon border adjustment mechanisms, the push to get more sustainable generally in the industry and all those elements, they continue to add layer upon layer on top of what I perceive when I look at the industry from my kind of access and build perspective, it becomes more complex, more complex than when the industry first started. I mean, is that what you’re seeing as well when you’re sort of assessing a bid and you’re going right or not assessing a bid, considering whether to bid or putting a bid together, are you seeing that level of complexity just increasing more and more and sort of essentially the uncertainty envelope increasing for you a bit as well? Is that fair to say?

Justine Burg [00:28:20] Absolutely. I think, but we also like complexity. So at Equinor handle complexity well I think but indeed you’re right, there is a trend for more and more and more non-price criteria such as, yeah, ecology, environmental benefits, integrated systems, and probably the Netherlands is one of the one of the countries that is, the most advanced putting it to, to the next level. Really. Yeah. But that also enables that those projects have a greater individual impact beyond, you know, the electrons, Right? So I think there is, there is some, some benefit in doing that, but indeed it adds complex complexity. So, I think it helps developing the growth of these additional technologies and that’s, that’s positive. But it’s also as you say, it has an impact in layers of cost. So it’s finding again this balance because that impacts business case and that impacts the prices as well. So I think. Positive to see some non-price criteria, but needs to be also balanced.

David Linden [00:29:30] And what about you mentioned auction design, but what about incentive schemes more generally? Right. So I sit here in the UK and right now we’re going to have the next CFD auction going on and there’s a discussion around having non-price factors in that. Now of course what you’ve got in the UK is auction, bit of time, CFD and then FID, etc., pick an acronym. But essentially you’ve got a disconnect already between the two. And so there’s an element of risk in there and then you’re adding non-price factors potentially into play at a later stage of development in a project. So you’re not even bidding as such on that until a later stage. I mean, you know, you might not be able to react specifically to that example, but I wanted to just give that example as to how incentive mechanisms are also now changing and evolving to sort of support this market. How are you seeing that? Are incentive schemes going in the right direction for you?

Justine Burg [00:30:30] I think you give the example of the UK of what I find it quite exciting and challenging at the same time is that there is not one single system across the industry. Each country has its own systems. So that makes it, you know, we need to look at case by case. We need to look at evaluate each market independently and in the framework independently. But indeed, there are many different constellations in terms of incentive or supports. Yeah, I think that’s important that they use and the national government consider targeted support on some items, right. Either on the infrastructure or on the industry which will be needed to again reach this volume ambition. There are different ways of doing that, or different ways, also it affects the scope of the developer. Does it include the grid connection or not? Is the grid connection covered by the authorities, for example? Is it a CFD, two way CFD?. So there are different, there are different ways of supports. And going back to the supply chain component, clearly. It will be key to see how this Europe green deal industry plan will really as a response to the American Inflation Reduction Act will, trigger some effort because in this I think there needs to be opportunity to on ad-hoc levels to support that industry. That’s one way of getting this incentive as well and making this project being developed, indeed. Ports, grid updates as well will be also critical pieces of this puzzle to make it happen. So there is some investment needed and how to get there. So there are different shapes, forms of these incentives.

David Linden [00:32:29] Yeah. Okay. So I can see there’s quite a few different ways of helping the industry evolve or develop and provide either providing certainty for the benefit of financing and revenue certainty, etc., but also other parts of the ecosystem that can help the industry grow. And it’s interesting to hear this. I’m thinking if I go back two, three, four years, maybe we were talking very much around a subsidy free opportunity world, you know, where costs were forever reducing and you were getting to a place where you don’t need subsidies anymore, you need support anymore. This industry’s free on its own. And even I mean, even the subsidy free bids that you see now as you kind of suggesting, aren’t essentially hundred percent subsidy free because getting other forms of support to make that happen. But in essence, I mean, if I was to simplify, are we now beyond subsidy free as in it’s not good to talk about subsidy for free as an industry now that just isn’t realistic in the current macro environment, in the current setup that we’ve got, the industry’s moved beyond that, that we’re actually in a place where the industry needs a bit of help, it needs a bit of support and it needs a bit of clarity as to how to move forward. And just talking about subsidy free opportunities is not the way forward. Maybe it never was, but it’s about taking a different approach.

Justine Burg [00:33:57] But we see more and more market going merchants for sure, right? Any of this matured continental north part of the continental Europe are all there today. But again, there is the scope, in the charge of the developer, is such that some part of the scope is taken by the state. So it’s, you know, but yes, exposure to a merchant, having the developers signing offtakes for them, for the electrons is definitely with regard to the bottom fixed offshore wind, you know, certainly the trend that we will see going forward. Floating offshore wind, however, is probably, you know, still depending on the scale and the speed of development, you know, we need to rely still on some supports.

David Linden [00:34:56] Okay. So if I take a quick step back and you’ve answered a lot of this already as we’ve gone through, which has just been fabulous, so thank you, Justine. But around sort of, if I listen to you’re three key areas, you know, around the difficulties or the challenges, shall we say, but obviously they present opportunities in their own way around project development and the macro context, auction design and sort of other parts around that, around incentives. Let’s just say. That’s quite a package of things that present a challenge to the industry, to governments even. Right. In terms of how to make this industry move forward. So, is what we’ve got appropriate right now as a market design or a set up. I mean, I’m hearing a bit of “No, things need to change”. But please, can you elaborate or contradict me, whichever way you wish to take on this one. But that maybe is an extension of that, because I’m sort of pre-empting your response a little bit. You know what in this sort of a nutshell needs to change. What needs to evolve to deliver? Essentially, that’s the question we’re trying to answer around the deliverability.

Justine Burg [00:36:11] And I will probably have to restate that maybe offshore wind is among the cheapest energy sources today, right.

David Linden [00:36:18] Fair point, Yes.

Justine Burg [00:36:20] Yeah. And, so more offshore wind will be good for, for the pocket of the consumers and so, it’s a cheap energy sources. So but as you say, I think system thinking will be required, but to deliver on those ambitions and collaboration, I think, you know, speeding up the development, maybe some, ad hoc support, targeted support, having auction design that enables the developer, the supply chain and the countries to all reap some benefits from development of offshore wind is, is key. And some, you know, targeted support on, on infrastructure when it when it is needed with maybe the opportunity set of building some really interesting interconnected markets where here again going back to my point collaboration will be key.

David Linden [00:37:19] While still quite a few different areas for the industry to sort out. And I’m for one excited to see how how the industry is going to do all of that. So there’s a lot of ambition. And part of the reality, I guess Europe, you know, is, the politicians need to realise this: it’s a global market now and there are global opportunities out there. I agree with you; It is a fantastic, you know, resource on the doorstep which provides cheap electricity to reach capacity but also climate targets. It’s a wonderful thing. But if people struggle to invest, and you’ll see this in other places, you’re seeing this in the US, you’re seeing this in different parts of Asia, right? If you struggle to invest then, people will turn their attention elsewhere. I mean, do you think there’s a risk of that happening in Europe? Ambition is one thing, deliverability is another and that results in people looking elsewhere?

Justine Burg [00:38:16] I don’t think so. I think the appetite is there. I think there are some hurdles that we’ve discussed, but they are, they are all manageable. So I think that’s the focus will be for, all the different actors. Right. Will be in, in making it a success story. So, I think we have lots of ingredients to make it happen. I think there is, but of course the points that we’ve discussed will and should be addressed, but there is, ambition level, is there, readiness of developers, is there, supply chain, you know, has line of sight, of some volumes. So I think, you know, there is all the ingredients to make it, realised as well. So no, I don’t think that the focus will shift away.

David Linden [00:39:11] No, I agree. It’s good to end all the positive note there then Justine thank you so much. Thank you for taking the time to speak to us again. Very much appreciate your thoughts. I think it’s great to see the ambition, opportunity and I think the debate for deliverability I think will keep going because there’s a lot to debate. But thank you for sharing your thoughts on that with us.

Justine Burg [00:39:32] Thank you very much, David.

David Linden [00:39:34]  No problems at all. And thanks everyone for listening as well. I hope you enjoyed it. Please make sure you subscribe and give us a great rating talk to you next time.

 

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